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Ganos Lal
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re: Wargames Winner's and Discussion Thread

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Valerien79 wrote:
We had no chance whatsoever against our foes, and never did. We had no kills in either match, and that tells me we could do better at making the teams. I think initially that teams should be set based on who confirms they are attending. Our group had 2 fairly new people, against 4 people who it appeared had much more experience. The teams could be adjusted based o who is there when the games start.


The team you fought was possibly more experienced, maybe just better geared. The same team fought my team and had no kills against us. The thing I think is the problem is that a few of us, like to do some light pvp, and run into the more powerful builds for captain's skills and more powerful bridge officer skill setups. We are willing to share that knowledge to make our fleet better. If we are all as powerful as John and I are, or as tanky as Runaz is, STF's are a cake walk. Done and over with in 10 minutes in most cases maximum 15 minutes.


Last edited by Ganos Lal on 09/29/13 17:40; edited 1 time in total


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My issue with the "Power builds" is several-fold.

1) While in theory, every player *could* have access to the tools needed (BOff powers, DOffs, etc), it takes a while to potentially acquire/accrue all of those things.

2) I've seen PvP matches within our own fleet where folks fighting against each other use those builds and those fights Last. For. Ever.

3) If there were other builds that were viable against the "Power builds," then I wouldn't mind as much. When I pretty much have to consider using a "Power build" to have even a small chance, then it sours the experience for me.

4) Used to be that you could bring a somewhat tweaked captain build, with decent equipment and easy access BOff abilities into a PvP match and have a chance, so long as the teamwork was there. Now, teamwork seems to matter a lot less than what sort of gear you or your ship has and the BOff and DOffs you have slotted. Call me old-fashioned, but I don't think that makes a lot of sense, nor is it really fair. Teamwork should > gear.

To be clear, gear in the hands of a clueless operator isn't nearly effective as G, Huck and others knowing how to use their ship, its gear and crew (BOffs/DOffs) to their utmost. They, however, should not be able to stand up at 3 or 4 to one odds against people of roughly equal knowledge/skill and be able to shrug it off with a "Power build."

I'm not asking you to agree with me, but the CoS did ask for feedback, and by God, I'm giving it. I don't generally like limiting Fleet member options in our events, especially PvP. I'd like to think if you look at the situation objectively, you can recognize it for the issue it is.


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re: Wargames Winner's and Discussion Thread

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Ganos Lal wrote:
The team you fought was possibly more experienced, maybe just better geared. The same team fought my team and had no kills against us. The thing I think is the problem is that a few of us, like to do some light pvp, and run into the more powerful builds for captain's skills and more powerful bridge officer skill setups. We are willing to share that knowledge to make our fleet better. If we are all as powerful as John and I are, or as tanky as Runaz is, STF's are a cake walk. Done and over with in 10 minutes in most cases maximum 15 minutes.


You got to remember, not everyone wants to build the super powerful "power builds" as p'Rett put it. People like making their own unique builds and using what skills they like, not just want is the standard.

Also not everyone lives in the game or alots as much time to get the resources to dedicate to the power builds. The power builds cost a lot of EC.

Building everyone up to be PvP powerhouses is not the same, and is not the key, to making the games balance. Like I said, there was a reason I never brought a tech build into the games.

Granted it's everyone's own personal drive to be better at PvP but I feel like you are missing the point of as far as what was being said about the team selections and the balancing. The games are more about EVERYONE having fun, not just winning.


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re: Wargames Winner's and Discussion Thread

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Ganos Lal wrote:
This is all fine and dandy but then I suggest we start at 6:30 pst/9:30 est so that those of us who can not get home from work until 10 after 6 est can participate in events also.


It's like you completely looked over what I said so I'll repeat. For those who do show up late, ALLOW them in. But after the selection rounds are over, so they can be placed on a team that would balance the games overall. There would be no need to start them that late since the 1st game usually never kicks off till 9:35-9:45 EST anyways.


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davisjm0311

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You got to remember, not everyone wants to build the super powerful "power builds" as p'Rett put it. People like making their own unique builds and using what skills they like, not just want is the standard.

Also not everyone lives in the game or alots as much time to get the resources to dedicate to the power builds. The power builds cost a lot of EC.

Building everyone up to be PvP powerhouses is not the same, and is not the key, to making the games balance. Like I said, there was a reason I never brought a tech build into the games.

Granted it's everyone's own personal drive to be better at PvP but I feel like you are missing the point of as far as what was being said about the team selections and the balancing. The games are more about EVERYONE having fun, not just winning.


So those of us that put in the time to optimize our ships, specs, and builds should be punished for it?


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davisjm0311 wrote:
So those of us that put in the time to optimize our ships, specs, and builds should be punished for it?


Not at all. No one is suggesting you set the build completely aside.

The flipside, though: no one forced you to spend the EC, time or whatever to set your ship up that way. Much like any MMO, if there's one build/set-up that is far superior to everything else, then anyone that wants to be able to compete then puts forth the resources necessary.

Does that make these Intra-Fleet wargames fun for you, though, to have no real competition if all of the "Power builds" (or at least 2) are on the one team?

Look back at my first response; even one on one, these "Power builds" can't really take each other down, and they can literally go on forever.


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davisjm0311

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I understand that no-one forced me to. I chose to put the time in..because I put the time in I WILL NOT set it aside. If that causes an issue I can be banned from the games or kicked, but I'm not going to half ass it.


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re: Wargames Winner's and Discussion Thread

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no one is asking you to, there just saying don't put all the "power" builds on one team.


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re: Wargames Winner's and Discussion Thread

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Gentlemen, let's keep the dialogue open and civil. Remember we are officers in the "Lucky" 7th let's act that way. The way I see it It's a game and the motto I posted on the main page over 4 years ago is "No man left behind" we are ALL in this together a team the 7th... Carry on...

I like some of the idea's in this thread I would like to discuss at our next staff meeting.

To all the winners Gratz and well done...


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Capt pRett wrote:
Teamwork should > gear.


Just highlighting what I feel to be the point that is being missed, because with the "Power builds," teamwork can't really overcome them at this point.


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davisjm0311 wrote:
I understand that no-one forced me to. I chose to put the time in..because I put the time in I WILL NOT set it aside. If that causes an issue I can be banned from the games or kicked, but I'm not going to half ass it.


Then you're missing what has been the primary goal of these wargames from their onset: to be a place for Fleet-mates to have a friendly, sportsmanlike atmosphere for some PvP. It is literally zero fun to participate in a match against one of those builds, and zero fun for two of those builds to go up against one another.

In the interest of a more level playing field and therefore fun for more members of the Fleet, this aspect of the wargames needs to be looked at and discussed.

We've banned things in the wargames before, due to their broken nature. Case in point: the original scorpion fighters that would chase an enemy across the field, but would turn "friendly" to the target after a while, but kept shooting.


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davisjm0311

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That's a bug. A build works exactly as each piece says it will. I'm not missing the point. I have fun playing in high quality gear with optimal builds. Using the more powerful builds is part of the game. friendly or not if someone doesn't put as much effort in the setup that they choose to use. they will lose.


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I, and others, have put effort into our builds. Before this Technician build came along, there were several builds that were competitive. Now, it seems as if the only sure way to be effective is to shell out a lot of EC, time and/or dil.

Know what that sounds like? Pay to Win. Thanks, but no [CENSORED] thanks.


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davisjm0311

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Their are a number of great builds that are competitive with the tech build. Farming credits and dilithium is called playing the game not p2w.


Last edited by davisjm0311 on 09/30/13 0:15; edited 1 time in total


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Capt pRett wrote:
I, and others, have put effort into our builds. Before this Technician build came along, there were several builds that were competitive. Now, it seems as if the only sure way to be effective is to shell out a lot of EC, time and/or dil.

Know what that sounds like? Pay to Win. Thanks, but no [CENSORED] thanks.


Quite frankly, this is beneath you.

Or do you expect to be as effective as someone like Ganoslal without having to spend time, dilithium, or EC? What you've described is essentially the exact opposite of P2W.


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