Post new topic   Reply to topic    7th Fleet Forum Index -> Fleet Events
View previous topic :: View next topic   Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
VADM pRett
Tactical - Vice Admiral

user avatar
Awarded:
Joined: 14 Jan 2010
Posts: 1865

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Wargames Winner's and Discussion Thread

0
sparrow794 wrote:
Capt pRett wrote:
I, and others, have put effort into our builds. Before this Technician build came along, there were several builds that were competitive. Now, it seems as if the only sure way to be effective is to shell out a lot of EC, time and/or dil.

Know what that sounds like? Pay to Win. Thanks, but no [CENSORED] thanks.


Quite frankly, this is beneath you.

Or do you expect to be as effective as someone like Ganoslal without having to spend time, dilithium, or EC? What you've described is essentially the exact opposite of P2W.


That's not what I said. Quite frankly, I think a lot of the attitudes being shown in here are beneath what we expect of the 7th, but what the fuck do I know?


_________________
Prett photo Prett.png
Jiinan
Tactical - Captain

user avatar
Awarded:
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 52

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Wargames Winner's and Discussion Thread

0
Allow me to have a say please gentlemen. I was the new guy in Friday nights space combat, yes I was under geared and out of practice in the worst way just coming off an extended LOA. The first go I got hammered in the worst way. Still getting advice from my team in Vent and trying my best to act on it.

In between they helped me with gear, and general setup of BOFFs and DOFFs. Now certainly my own skill selection may leave a lot to be desired and I'll be looking to respec at some point in the future, but that will be my choice.

Now certainly I was having more fun after getting this help than before, but in general I was enjoying the experience and just hoping it wouldn't cost my team with my rookie ways. Now maybe I have no place to speak this being my first time out, but I would think the biggest thing would be about learning PvP and getting better.

Every build has a weakness no matter what the game is. It becomes a point then for use to figure it out and use it against others in PvP that are spec'd the same way.
djteke
Engineering - Captain

user avatar
Awarded:
Joined: 14 Jun 2011
Posts: 75

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Wargames Winner's and Discussion Thread

0
I am only a Commander. I do not know much but learning slowly. There are a lot of knowledgeable people in this fleet. I do not know why we are fighting over this. I was on a losing team but I had a great time. These War games are for fun and to see your skills and see where you stand in battle. In real battle it is never equal. however we all picked our team members there that in itself is Equal. We got 2nd place in the ground combat and what I am doing now is to see how I can improve. You have to research and spend time to have perfection. If you only play the game an hour or 2 a week and dont research and put in your time you can only expect to lose. These games take time to make your ship and crew better. Lets just have fun and use this battle to improve our fleet and ships. If we lost lets use this to see how we can improve our ship and crews to win next time.
davisjm0311

user avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts:

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Wargames Winner's and Discussion Thread

0
Jiinan wrote:
Allow me to have a say please gentlemen. I was the new guy in Friday nights space combat, yes I was under geared and out of practice in the worst way just coming off an extended LOA. The first go I got hammered in the worst way. Still getting advice from my team in Vent and trying my best to act on it.

In between they helped me with gear, and general setup of BOFFs and DOFFs. Now certainly my own skill selection may leave a lot to be desired and I'll be looking to respec at some point in the future, but that will be my choice.

Now certainly I was having more fun after getting this help than before, but in general I was enjoying the experience and just hoping it wouldn't cost my team with my rookie ways. Now maybe I have no place to speak this being my first time out, but I would think the biggest thing would be about learning PvP and getting better.

Every build has a weakness no matter what the game is. It becomes a point then for use to figure it out and use it against others in PvP that are spec'd the same way.


You did very well. All we did was help make your ship a bit more sturdy.


_________________
 
Capt. Vashaar
Tactical - Captain

user avatar
Awarded:
Joined: 21 May 2008
Posts: 289

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Wargames Winner's and Discussion Thread

0
A big thanks to Ganos for helping me last night. Now to get flying lessons. I will be on all week, and availible anytime for instruction, now that I have gotten my Mogai up to speed.

Reading this thread has been quite interesting. Initially in the wargames, I got creamed. That being said, I did learn from the experience, and I am not afraid to ask for help. I am not ever going to be the biggest or baddest ship in hte fleet. I LOVE my Mogai, and will keep it as my main ship. I have a fully outfitted Scimitar for fun times nest wargames maybe, .

The second round, as I said before, I considered a major triumph. I did not die, and finished second in both damage and healling. While it can be a little discouraging to get blasted, I went into the wargames to learn, and did not expect to win. My next wargames, however, I intend to be a pain in the butt for some poor adversary.

I look at it this way. The games fulfiled their purpose, especially for n00bs like me. It was a chance to hangout with the big boys. To learn from them, and to get experience with how the fleet operates. I will be there everytime, no matter how much I get creamed. Someday, I will be the "Big Boy", .

I will, however, fight like a Romulan. If battle cloak will save my ass, I will use it, .
Anton Mercer
Engineering - Captain

user avatar
Awarded:
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 1620

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Wargames Winner's and Discussion Thread

0
I'm gonna nitpick through most of the comments as I give my answer. First and foremost all of this is just my 2 cents or opinions on the matter.

@Valerien79
I believe you fought my team in the first round with myself(mercer) Novin, dangle, and Elthair. I cannot speak for dangle and E, but Novin and myself are pretty seasoned for wargames. We won because we came in with a plan, didn't separate, and covered everyone else. You guys did great, specially you since it was your first time in your Rom ship, but you guys just couldn't keep up with our combined damage and healing output and that is how Novin and I are speced. I honestly think that was the only deciding factor not gear or experience.

@Huck
Now Huck is one of our strongest players, so he knows a lot about how things work in pvp. So I really have nothing to nitpick as I agree with everything he said, especially the part about late comers. We normally spend 20-25 minutes picking teams and preparing before a match even starts so late comers should be allowed. If teams are still picking anyone who comes in AFTER the start of team picking should be off limits until everyone who is there has been picked. To use this wargames as an example. G came in right as Shack was picking and Shack picked him up without a second thought, which is a little unfair to those who were there on time. Though as it showed Shack would still have had the last pick and G even if he had sat back till everyone else was picked, its just a courtesy to those who were on time.

@G
The branch splitting is a good idea, but you are correct that we could have an excess of one branch or another, but I'm sure even if you are not, other people who have alts would change if asked. Now that I have some of my other ships fight worthy I would have no problem switching to a sci or Tac(if actually needed but doubt that one) This would then require an ok from the groups or people can switch before we even start picking to see if everything evens out. Also concerning the training. Not everyone has the time or can be on when you are on to take you up on your offer, and there are some who like doing it there own way. I'm a mix of the two, you or someone else may give me the OP tech build and i may go "Hmm lets flip this with this and so on" to make it my own build. It may not be OP anymore, but it fits my playstyle. Again all just my 2 cents. Hmm always wondered my its "My 2 cents" but then "Penny for your thoughts"

Now ... @The Tech Build Discussion
I understand where both sides are coming from. It was a little disheartening to face Shack's team with G, Shack, and Davis and even Ben who they beefed up mid match as I believe he was our only kill the first match. having said that... should we ban the build? No. Should we split users of the build up? Yes. I remember when I could stand toe to toe with G using my own personal build for several minutes, but he would eventually win out because he HAS put more time into his gear and ship then I have, but with the tech build idk if I'd last more than 30 seconds. It is an OP build, but that is what he, or Davis, or whoever has chosen to fly and we CANNOT say "If your flying that build you can't come" That goes against everything the 7th stands for in this game and our family. Now it is true that better gear can beef up any build or ship or whathaveyou, but some people cannot put the time or effort into it that others do, and thats a fact and its not going to change. No, it is not fun getting creamed 15-0 by a stacked team, but you learn and prepare for the next WGs so that it doesn't happen again. We are having this discussion so that it doesn't happen again (figuratively)

To wrap up...
1. Splitting branches is a good idea. IF we have to ask for character switches then we can ASK.
2. If you are running a tech build, let us know and we can try and keep teams even steven. I'm sure someone can post what the tech build is and how to obtain it in the builds section.
3. Wargames are suppose to be fun. If we can compromise with everyone, then everyone will have more fun.

Again all of this is just my opinion. Sorry for the wall of text


_________________
Runaz

user avatar

Joined: 13 Jul 2009
Posts:

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Wargames Winner's and Discussion Thread

0
first i want to say that i wasn't going to post, and let the command staff work out the rules based on feedback from the rest of the fleet, but then they did ask for feedback so here is my little bits.


splitting up the captain classes doesn't need to have even number of each class, just an even distribution of them, this would also fall in for the builds of heated discussion.

for example 8 tac, 5 eng and 3 sci

split the tac evenly 2 per team, and separate the eng and sci to fill in the gaps. (this would leave one group with all three, on ground healers are awesome)

split up the skills/builds people have to create even teams and we can then focus on tactics and team communication. (this could be done over the next three months in a bracket style event to figure out where people lie in the ways of skills/builds (this would also give us a good measure of who needs help in PVP, if they want it))


_________________
VADM pRett
Tactical - Vice Admiral

user avatar
Awarded:
Joined: 14 Jan 2010
Posts: 1865

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Wargames Winner's and Discussion Thread

0
I've come across as been an asshat more than once in this thread, and for that I apologize.

I offer this in the interest of understanding, but not as an excuse:

One of my sore spots and pet peeves in any MMO is the reality or perhaps widely held belief that in order to have any chance of success (especially in PvP), you must use Build X.

I know that no one in the Fleet has said this, at least not on the forums or when I was on Vent; there is, though, the widely accepted recognition of how effective the Technician build is. Ganos'lal, being the perfectionist he is (and that is intended as a compliment, not a criticism or slam), obviously did his research on the build and tested it ruthlessly, and felt it worthy of being passed on to his Fleetmates. That is also worthy of praise, since he could have easily held it to himself and simply told the others to figure it out for themselves. He has also put a lot of time into helping others with their ship setups when he could have been doing his own thing. I'm probably preaching to the choir, but I want to make sure everyone understands that I am aware of what he's done, especially in terms of time "donated," if you will, to the Fleet and its members.

That all being said, I do think the use of this build within our Fleet Wargames does need careful consideration; an objective look at it will recognize its unbalancing nature and potential. I have an idea for the basis of a build I hope to put together at some point and try out that might work to counter it.

Again, I apologize for my conduct at several points in this thread and hope to resume being a constructive part of the process, rather than disruptive and/or destructive.


_________________
Prett photo Prett.png
Ganos Lal
Engineering - Captain

user avatar
Awarded:
Joined: 16 Jan 2011
Posts: 72

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Wargames Winner's and Discussion Thread

0
I don't remember anyone one going on about banning a build we didn't have on our ship even though others had it and totally owned almost everyone else with it. Almost no one could withstand an attack from that build. if you paired that with some decent heals and a tank or two, you are almost guaranteed a win. I don't remember anyone really complaining about the fact that they lost to a powerful team with powerful builds then. there was the running joke that Huckabee and ganos couldn't be on the same team. So we were made to be team captains to split us up. It almost took care of the being too powerful of a team issue, since most of the participants were fairly powerful it really didn't matter who's team huck or ganos were on. I would also like to point out that most of the negativity about the latest war games come from people with 3 E's or more on their ribbon. Other than the first war games I was in where it was 8 on 3, I haven't said shit about getting my ass blown to bits repeatedly in all but one war game(now two). . So I should spend a couple hundred bucks and get some keys and sell them so I can afford a bug ship and put a power build on it and bring it to the next war games and team up with another power build or two on engineers and science. That way I have an evenly spread out team that can power their way to first place and then get told they won because they used op builds on all classes of officer. maybe next time john, Teke and I can all bring our engineers with the tech build and win because we have too many power builds on our weaker engineers. Or I can put a team of 4 or 5 together with all science and tech builds flying vesta's, so we can be OP and PTW! Or I can buy my entire team temporal destroyers and set them all up with a power build. Take your pick, I can power build anything I fly, so am i not able to participate anymore because everything i fly is OP. It makes me seriously consider not participating in any further war games, if this is how it is going to end. OH and one last thing about the time thing, i don't get off work until 5:30 and don't usually get to leave until about 5:40. then i have a 30 minute drive to get home. So fucking excuse me for being 9 minutes late to something i can not physically get to any faster


_________________
Jason32
Science - Vice Admiral

user avatar
Awarded:
Joined: 16 Apr 2011
Posts: 1136

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Wargames Winner's and Discussion Thread

0
Gentlemen,

I want to take a moment to "right the ship" here before things get too far out of hand...

The whole purpose of this thread is to solicit feedback and comments in order to make the Wargames better. Not to undermine, humiliate, disrespect or use harsh words towards fellow fleetmates. While the Fleet Admiral, Deputy Commander and I expect and actually encourage constructive dialogue within the Fleet, blatant disrespect will not be tolerated.

I have never been one to sensor anyone. In fact, my role in life is to support and defend the Constitution of this great (yet broke) nation. But I will lock this thread and move it to an admin area if this continues. I have no issues with folks arguing and sharing opinions, but remember most of the forum threads are public and can be viewed by anyone, including potential recruits. If you want to argue and fight, by all means do so, but please do it in Ventilo in a private channel or via PMs, not in a public area. Additionally, you are brothers and sisters. Many of you I have personally met and hung out with. I even recently attended the wedding of a fleet member. Many of you are my real life friends and this is no way to treat friends. So please, be respectful and provide constructive suggestions to make the Wargames better.

A note about the Wargames: The Wargames are designed to do two things: #1 Be challenging. #2 Be fun. STO was the first MMO I have ever played, and just like you, I was at max level in no time, able to successfully complete even the elite missions. This is the fundamental problem in STO - i.e. it is easy! There isn't anything this fleet can't accomplish when we put our minds to it (from Elite STFs with optional to the CE when it was a complete bastard), which makes having challenging events for the fleet difficult to produce. PvP within the Fleet, the Wargames, will be about the hardest thing you will ever face in STO. The problem here is that each of us have an expectation of winning each time we warp into a map because the game overall is so easy. You must temper your expectations when conducting the Wargames. You also have to understand that the Wargames can be a significant teaching tool. We have some very good PvP players in the fleet. Pick their brains, learn what they know and I guarantee you will become a better STO player, PvP player, and 7th Fleet Member. The bottom line is...7th Fleet PvP will ALWAYS be challenging because we ARE THE BEST!

Please keep the suggestions coming. As you can read the above comments, there are some great suggestions posted thus far, and many of them would be easy to implement. They all will be discussed and considered during staff meetings to come.


_________________
VADM JT Kerry
VADM JT Kerry
Engineering - Vice Admiral

user avatar
Awarded:
Joined: 18 Jan 2010
Posts: 1248

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Wargames Winner's and Discussion Thread

0
OK. We do have the professional shipwrights in our ranks, and let me tell you, some of their builds are amazingly simple, when you get down to it, so long as you can find the parts. It's the parts that are the killer with some of them (DOffs, Consoles, etc. - and their all purple). I've been with the Fleet for a long while, but life is a whirlwind most days (and sometimes the Adderall doesn't help slow the spin down), and I only get an hour a day to play or do tasks for the Fleet - sometimes less. I don't mind. I love the game. And, you all make it more enjoyable. But I digress.

I enjoy my builds in STFs because I can sit back from a target and whale on it until it's gone, or push off a bunch while going after one. I'm improving on the STFs. But, I still like my gadgets. I'm going to research a build to combine the best of both.
But the problem still remains - the engineer and science ships are slower than the tactical, and the speed and turn rate is what kills. Add to it the weapons and consoles to increase the DPI and bam, I'm whaled on until I'm out of defenses. Like I said, they are simple builds, but they can do a lot of damage in a short time. Have two or three hit on you (or one very experienced) and your dead in 15 to 30 seconds no matter how tanky you are, but we all know this.

My ground build was surprisingly better than I thought. The one thing I noticed is Runaz and I did better moving and planting, than when we sat in one place - base camp style. But the ground PVP needs to have the mix. We were the tanks to support our Tactical guys - Mr. Speed and Mr. Davis (I think it was Davis). It helps to know the Objective - and to have one to focus one (especially in my case - HA! I was a bit embarrassed the last Ground STF - I jumped in not knowing what I was doing and blew the mission.) The Wargames ground I was better prepared for - didn't hurt to fall back on my Army training. Runaz was an excellent squad leader - quick to assess the situation and what to go after. And, I got to use my gadgets!

As for all of this brouhaha over those of us who are good at PvP and building a ship. It is what it is. On occasion, you get to run with the big dogs and other times you get bit by them. But the trick is to find your own build that you like and figure out how you can tweak it to beat the dog in the head before it bits. Make it hurt enough that they tuck tail and try to run. I just haven't put my mind to it as yet. With all those lovely gadgets out there, there has to be a way.

There has to be a way is the gist of having the wargames in the first place. Remember, war is never even. You goal is always to catch the other side off guard and find the weakness to exploit. Until then, just die as gracefully as you can.


_________________
 


VADM JT Kerry, USS Astoria, "Lucky" 7th Fleet, Starfleet Command, UFP

Admiral Van Wormer
Science - Admiral

user avatar
Awarded:
Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 762

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Wargames Winner's and Discussion Thread

0
Gentlemen,

We can and will make war games better or they may need to be discontinued. My suggestion is to have brackets where ships of a like level will compete against each other. Not everyone has the time/money to create a "super build". Let casual or stock equipment captains compete against each other while those commanding "super ships" fight each other for their bragging rights. Above all, the flaming, bitching, moaning and complaining in this thread must stop. It's just NOT who we are as officers of The "Lucky" Seventh Fleet.


_________________
Capt. Vashaar
Tactical - Captain

user avatar
Awarded:
Joined: 21 May 2008
Posts: 289

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Wargames Winner's and Discussion Thread

0
In all my active duty experience (26yrs) I did wargames ad nauseum. When we got together to disect what took place, nobody ever asked who won. It was about tactics and what we learned that could make us better the next time. I could care less about E ribbons or whatever we get for that. I personally learned a lot, and it opened avenues for me to other fleet members that I had never talked to. I maintain, you can learn something from every encounter. While we got creamed, I had a blast. Anyone who goes into these things "trying to win", is there for the wrong reason. Every team should have one clueless n00b like me to show them the ropes.
VADM Kor
Science - Vice Admiral

user avatar
Awarded:
Joined: 18 Aug 2008
Posts: 591

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Wargames Winner's and Discussion Thread

0
Capt pRett wrote:
I have an idea for the basis of a build I hope to put together at some point and try out that might work to counter it.


This part right here is why I think we should maybe not ban builds. What if we play PvP "in the wild," not just in our own wargames, but out against other players from other Fleets? What do we do when we run into people who have evolved the same build and play style? We can't just roll over and play dead, we have to learn how to counter it and win against it, even if it means adopting the same build and/or play style. We don't want our Fleet to look bad in those situations, do we?

To keep the wargames fun, as some of us have pointed out, we can take care not to stack too many of the players playing these builds who have a lot of time invested in it and who are good at it on the same team.

The main thing about our Fleet and the game in general, should be about having fun, right? But, I also can't help getting sucked into the mentality of having Fleet wargames as a preparatory exercise so that our Fleet as a whole is prepared to meet its enemies out there in space and be victorious. Am I wrong to think of it this way? What do you all think? Should it only be about having fun, in which case we could indeed make more limiting rules in the wargames, or should the focus be more on the scale toward PvP prep and schooling for the event? Imagine it as a software setting slider lever that you could crank from between the funnest fun on one end and utilitarian PvP training on the other [maybe not so much fun] end. Where do we want to be on that scale, and what compromises should we make to be there? Should we be right over on the fun end? Somewhere in the middle where we still get the benefit of the school of hard knocks but still have fun, or should it be a purist exercise where we prep ourselves for anything we could run into out there against other Fleets?

I suspect we'll want to be somewhere in the middle. I think that would be my preference. If it were up to me, I'd let it be anything goes [with the exception of truly broken things like the previously mentioned Scorpion Fighters], and just try to make the wargames more fun and workable by trying to balance the teams. We may occasionally have epic failures in accomplishing our team balancing, though. The beatings will continue until the morale improves!


_________________
Namebar
VADM Kor, Chief Engineer and Fleet Historian, 7th Fleet, United Federation of Planets.
VADM pRett
Tactical - Vice Admiral

user avatar
Awarded:
Joined: 14 Jan 2010
Posts: 1865

Send private message
Reply with quote

re: Wargames Winner's and Discussion Thread

0
Capt pRett wrote:
I have an idea for the basis of a build I hope to put together at some point and try out that might work to counter it.


So, I got to test it last night against Ganos'lal, and it has promise; the irony is that it would be made even stronger by the use of the Technician build, itself.

I'm not going to play Secret Squirrel here; it's not so much a build, per se. I had the idea that using Viral Matrix might work to shut the target down for a bit. To make it more effective, having three Systems DOffs slotted will help (ideally one purple, one blue, one green); these DOffs give a chance to have a second subsystem shut down after a delay. Purple is 25% after a 15 second delay; blue is 20% and 20 (maybe 25) and green is 15% and 30.

On its own, this set-up is unlikely to defeat its target one on one, as it requires a Commander and LC Sci BOff skill slot for the two Viral Matrices. It should definitely shine in a team format; couple it with a well-timed Sub-nuc, and your target will not be happy. The only subsytem VM will not shut down is shields, but that's probably for the best.

VM is countered/removed by Engineering Team - but who really uses that any more, since it shares a cooldown with Tactical Team? That, and it takes up a slot most folks would (understandably) devote to Emergency Power to Shields I.


_________________
Prett photo Prett.png
Posts from:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    7th Fleet Forum Index -> Fleet Events All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum