So for those of you who were not at the last meeting, a suggestion was made to create ribbons for DPS. This was, in no uncertain terms, considered a bad idea and quickly shot down. Admittedly, at the time. I didn't understand why. However, after running Infected Space Advanced (ISA) with a few of you I have come to understand why.
In the interest of full disclosure, I'm very much into trying to push my ship to get as much DPS as possible. It's fun. Seeing those big yellow numbers and watching the health of Borg Tac-Cube just melt away is something I enjoy. But after running ISA with a few of the Fleet members, it finally dawned on me why a DPS ribbon is a bad idea (even if it's for different reasons). There are several reasons why I came to this realization:
1) Some are under the impression that doing less than 10,000 DPS is a bad thing. IT IS NOT! And it does not reflect negatively on you as a captain or your ship. 90% of the game's content can be done, and done very well, in a ship that does less than 10K DPS. The point of STO is to have fun. The point of a fleet is to do so in a social setting. You don't need to be doing massive amount of damage to have fun. Post-DR, advanced, and elite content is another matter due to several factors, but we'll get to that in a bit.
2) There is a lack of understanding of how DPS works, and how to raise it. I've heard a few express a certain level of . . . disbelief, when they failed to up their DPS or see the numbers the expected. First off, ISA is one STF out of dozens, and its use to measure DPS is due to the specific nature of how the mission is run. In this regard, they are very few STF (maybe two or tree at the elite level) where you can actually see a correlation in terms of DPS. For instance, one captain may do more significantly more DPS in ISA than another, but do less than the other captain in Crystalline Catastrophe.
3) It places an unnecessary emphasis on getting your ship's gear to XIV Epic, or buying expensive traits and gear. 10K+ DPS is easily obtainable with nothing more than mission-obtained equipment and traits. 20K can be obtained with nothing more than reputation an fleet gear. The two biggest factors in getting high(er) numbers, again in ISA only, is: piloting - knowing where to be, which abilities to activate, and when to activate them; and group make up - that being the other four captains you are flying with. Group make-up, IMO, is the more important of the two. When I hit my current high I was running with captain like FCPT Davis and LT Sean Hill, who, not only do considerable DPS in their own right, but run certain abilities, or rather certain types of builds, that make it easier for me. Essentially, they set-em' up for me to knock-em' down. I usually do worse when I run with captains who do the same amount od DPS that my ship is capable of.
For those of you who know how much DPS my ship is capable of putting out, this may come off as someone speaking from on-high....and maybe I am. I find pushing the limits of my ship fun, and if you do too, that's great. But based on some of the comments made by some of the fleet members in vent concerning their ships' DPS, I just felt like I should say something. Even if you're flying a Tier-3U, or like me, didn't even know what auto-fire was till a few days ago, your first priority should be to have fun. DPS should just be icing on the cake. IF you like that sort of thing.
Well said, sir. I couldn't agree more. It has taken me two years to build a ship that is capable of 30K DPS, but I had a great time getting to that point. As I see it, do what's fun to you and let the rest take care of itself. Whether that's just playing for the fun of it or the pursuit of the game's limits, if you are having fun then you are doing it right.
One of the things that I love about this fleet is that there is a place for everyone. From the Talbendorfs to the Top Guns, we have them all and we are all friends and look out for one another. You will find other fleets, but you will never find one that cares more about it's members.
So for those of you who were not at the last meeting, a suggestion was made to create ribbons for DPS. This was, in no uncertain terms, considered a bad idea and quickly shot down. Admittedly, at the time. I didn't understand why. However, after running Infected Space Advanced (ISA) with a few of you I have come to understand why.
In the interest of full disclosure, I'm very much into trying to push my ship to get as much DPS as possible. It's fun. Seeing those big yellow numbers and watching the health of Borg Tac-Cube just melt away is something I enjoy. But after running ISA with a few of the Fleet members, it finally dawned on me why a DPS ribbon is a bad idea (even if it's for different reasons). There are several reasons why I came to this realization:
1) Some are under the impression that doing less than 10,000 DPS is a bad thing. IT IS NOT! And it does not reflect negatively on you as a captain or your ship. 90% of the game's content can be done, and done very well, in a ship that does less than 10K DPS. The point of STO is to have fun. The point of a fleet is to do so in a social setting. You don't need to be doing massive amount of damage to have fun. Post-DR, advanced, and elite content is another matter due to several factors, but we'll get to that in a bit.
2) There is a lack of understanding of how DPS works, and how to raise it. I've heard a few express a certain level of . . . disbelief, when they failed to up their DPS or see the numbers the expected. First off, ISA is one STF out of dozens, and its use to measure DPS is due to the specific nature of how the mission is run. In this regard, they are very few STF (maybe two or tree at the elite level) where you can actually see a correlation in terms of DPS. For instance, one captain may do more significantly more DPS in ISA than another, but do less than the other captain in Crystalline Catastrophe.
3) It places an unnecessary emphasis on getting your ship's gear to XIV Epic, or buying expensive traits and gear. 10K+ DPS is easily obtainable with nothing more than mission-obtained equipment and traits. 20K can be obtained with nothing more than reputation an fleet gear. The two biggest factors in getting high(er) numbers, again in ISA only, is: piloting - knowing where to be, which abilities to activate, and when to activate them; and group make up - that being the other four captains you are flying with. Group make-up, IMO, is the more important of the two. When I hit my current high I was running with captain like FCPT Davis and LT Sean Hill, who, not only do considerable DPS in their own right, but run certain abilities, or rather certain types of builds, that make it easier for me. Essentially, they set-em' up for me to knock-em' down. I usually do worse when I run with captains who do the same amount od DPS that my ship is capable of.
For those of you who know how much DPS my ship is capable of putting out, this may come off as someone speaking from on-high....and maybe I am. I find pushing the limits of my ship fun, and if you do too, that's great. But based on some of the comments made by some of the fleet members in vent concerning their ships' DPS, I just felt like I should say something. Even if you're flying a Tier-3U, or like me, didn't even know what auto-fire was till a few days ago, your first priority should be to have fun. DPS should just be icing on the cake. IF you like that sort of thing.
Being a new member to the fleet and having a ship that does less than 10K in damage, I feel I can reply to this from a certain prospective. I agree that having a ribbon for DPS is a very bad thing. It takes, from what I have seen, a tremendous investment in time and resources to get the high DPS that folks strive for. Folks who do not have that time or those resources are at a massive disadvantage. Of course, this is what the microtransactions hope to capitalize upon, but I will not segue into that argument with my reply. A DPS ribbon would send the wrong message to members, especially new Fleet members, and the fact it was nixed is something I am pleased to see.
As far as having a ship that does less than 10k being able to be effective, in solo PvE, under most circumstances, this is true. Since I returned to STO in July, I have felt that game balance has been horribly skewed and is not balanced. I saw this beginning in 2011 when I originally left because of all of the PvP Tac Escort captains whining about being insta-popped.
However, is it fun to be in a ship doing less than 10K? Absolutely not. It is extremely disheartening to be on a team with folks who are obviously competent and understand teamwork, such as 7th Fleet (which is why I joined ) and seeing the best one can build solo, without fleet support be so laughably ineffective in team efforts. Players who can insta-pop flotillas have every reason to be proud of their builds, especially with how much work Cryptic demands from a player to get to that point. As a player who is on the outside looking in, in terms of DPS, I have to ask myself, "What am I contributing to this team?" The answer, sad to say, is "absolutely nothing." From what I have seen in my return, the game engine demands DPS from players. Players who cannot DPS are simply asking to get popped and fail missions.
Failing is not fun.
I have lost count of how many times I have abandoned PUGs in fleet missions because no one could DPS. When I check out the Combat Meter to see the DPS of the team, seeing my toon at the top of the list tells me just how bad the team was. Not being able to deal effective damage leads to an extremely frustrating gaming experience. Again, flying a boat that does less than 10K is not fun. It leads to unnecessary grinding in battle and, in some missions, can get one overwhelmed because of the respawn cooldown timers being shorter than the wave instance (several Vaadwaur missions have this problem). On teams, I have not seen any value in any roles other than DPS. There is no reason for either tanks or healboats if the team can swat ships like flies.
I have already talked to Davis about my next boat and I am only concerned with boosting DPS. I cannot say that my recent experiences have been fun. A toon that does less than 10K is like running around and shooting Nerf darts at everything. The only thing I do not have to worry about are Breen ships, which even I can uses for cannon fodder. Against the Vaadwaur, Undine, Voth or Iconians, the only difference that a
Just to be clear, my bringing up the ribbon idea wasn't to argue it's merits, or lack thereof. It was simply a way of acknowledging a shift in my own thinking. The ribbon idea, if it wasn't clear already, was my idea. I thought it was a good idea. I was wrong. This post wasn't about taking shots at anyone, and if anyone did or does, please know that was not my intention. I wrote this for anyone, who may find themselves either too little DPS to or sinking their hard earned resources and not seeing the returns they might have expected. I freely admit that the DPS game can be fun and rewarding, but it can be frustrating as well. Simply slapping good or even great gear on a Tier 6 ship will not send your DPS into the stratosphere. Many of the guys who are doing 150K+ not only understand how every little trait or piece of gear works, but also understand the actual math involved in the game's programing. Some have spent countless hours on Tribble (basically a test server) figuring out the best combinations of traits and gear.
TL;DR - Don't take this as a shit across the bow. Temper your expectations. You'll get there where you want to be ecventually. But above all, ENJOY the game.
First off, let me say that what the fleet expects of you has nothing to do with your DPS. Your joining the fleet on missions and hanging out on vent is all the fleet real cares about. I know others who have been in the fleet far longer than my 3 months will tell you the same.
But you are right, no one wants to feel like the weak link or the broken cog. But even if you're doing 500,000 DPS but don't know how to properly run a mission then all that damage means squat. As for teamwork, that'll cone from running missions with us. FCPT Sam, Sean Hill, Phoenix and others (myself included) haven't been with the Fleet that long, but from working together on so many missions we've developed a rhythm of sorts. But if I were to just jump into a mission with, let's say FADM Fortin and VADM Kor, it would probably take us a few run to get used to flying with each other. But eventually we'd get. Just takes time.
Again, we're in a Fleet to have fun together. So let's have fun.
Last edited by BigBob357 on 12/01/15 23:30; edited 1 time in total
Just to be clear, my bringing up the ribbon idea wasn't to argue it's merits, or lack thereof. It was simply a way of acknowledging a shift in my own thinking. The ribbon idea, if it wasn't clear already, was my idea. I thought it was a good idea. I was wrong. This post wasn't about taking shots at anyone, and if anyone did or does, please know that was not my intention. I wrote this for anyone, who may find themselves either too little DPS to or sinking their hard earned resources and not seeing the returns they might have expected. I freely admit that the DPS game can be fun and rewarding, but it can be frustrating as well. Simply slapping good or even great gear on a Tier 6 ship will not send your DPS into the stratosphere. Many of the guys who are doing 150K+ not only understand how every little trait or piece of gear works, but also understand the actual math involved in the game's programing. Some have spent countless hours on Tribble (basically a test server) figuring out the best combinations of traits and gear.
TL;DR - Don't take this as a shit across the bow. Temper your expectations. You'll get there where you want to be ecventually. But above all, ENJOY the game.
I do not feel as if anyone was taking a shot at me at all. I am just saying that, coming from someone whose toon is on the low end of the DPS scale, it sucks...hard. I know I will get there eventually, but the slog to get there is its own frustration. To be fair to myself, I actually improved my toon from when I picked the game back up in July.
If I had the time to dedicate to it, I would be one of those guys on Tribble that know the engine in-and-out to min-max my build. I did something similar 22 years ago back during my arcade days at the old Street Fighter II machines. It is just frustrating coming to terms with how underpowered one's build is despite all best efforts.
Admiral Barrett wrote: " I do not feel as if anyone was taking a shot at me at all. I am just saying that, coming from someone whose toon is on the low end of the DPS scale, it sucks...hard. I know I will get there eventually, but the slog to get there is its own frustration. To be fair to myself, I actually improved my toon from when I picked the game back up in July."
Sir, don't think for a moment that you walk alone. Heck, there are plenty of us, and we are actually the silent majority; we have other priorities in the game. I've been here for over 3 years, don't track DPS and such, and only recently, feel that I have a Toon/Ship good enough to even participate in Fleet Wargames. For many of us, especially those who favor the KDF side, fleet Wargames where pretty much this nothing more than showing and blowing up, but in a glorious fashion. Rest assured, excellent pilots and high DPS players have been rewarded for years via the Fleet War Games, i.e., Battle E Medal (with stars).
Also, what about the other side of the coin? During the last wargames, we had a couple of our Engineering Captains, with excellent ships and equipment battle it out over 45 minutes. The shielding/hull healing has gotten so much better in the game. Then factor in some of the new science builds. In my few years here, I have watch the game evolve, sometimes not for the best story wise (eye roll), but at least growing.
As a relativity new Staff Officer, I really do appreciate threads like this one. I think I can speak for the rest of the Command Staff as well; these threads are important to us, especially when there is a high level of respect/civility among the participants. This is why we have also have Admiral's call every month; if we don't hear from you, we will never know. Communications is always best when it is two-way.
As for the Top Gun Engineers - that would be Mr. Mercer and myself. My build isn't high DPS, but is set to stand up to and out live the opposing force. Like in the STF Infected: the Conduit, my ship is the one to handle the Crowd Control of the spheres coming from the conduit as the other 4 players knock out the generators and the transformers. And I can do a bit of damage, but not like the others.
I find my niche is in setting the scenario up so others can waylay the damage. Davis and I and 3 others won the first ground Battle E by setting up Heal stations and Turret/Mortar stands, and we were up against a heavy handed group lead by Mr. Shackelford. It is all about finding your niche for the mission.
JT
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VADM JT Kerry, USS Astoria, "Lucky" 7th Fleet, Starfleet Command, UFP
As for the Top Gun Engineers - that would be Mr. Mercer and myself. My build isn't high DPS, but is set to stand up to and out live the opposing force. Like in the STF Infected: the Conduit, my ship is the one to handle the Crowd Control of the spheres coming from the conduit as the other 4 players knock out the generators and the transformers. And I can do a bit of damage, but not like the others.
I find my niche is in setting the scenario up so others can waylay the damage. Davis and I and 3 others won the first ground Battle E by setting up Heal stations and Turret/Mortar stands, and we were up against a heavy handed group lead by Mr. Shackelford. It is all about finding your niche for the mission.
JT
I couldn't agree more, sir. Play style has an enormous impact on ship builds. If you are aggressive, you tend to lean toward DPS. If you prefer a defensive play style, you lean more toward a tank build. The point is this: build what you like to play and to your strengths.
We all began with a tier 1 ship and used only what Cryptic gave us. I have purchased ships and a few odds and ends here and there, but mostly I fly with what you can get get for free. The baddest ship I have, has all it's weapons supplied from the Romulan rep system. If you work the reps, are smart about how you build, have a basic understanding of how the game mechanics works, you can build a ship that you can be proud to call your own. But at the end of the day, it's about having fun playing with a group of mighty fine people from all around the globe.
1) Some are under the impression that doing less than 10,000 DPS is a bad thing. IT IS NOT! And it does not reflect negatively on you as a captain or your ship. 90% of the game's content can be done, and done very well, in a ship that does less than 10K DPS. The point of STO is to have fun. The point of a fleet is to do so in a social setting. You don't need to be doing massive amount of damage to have fun. Post-DR, advanced, and elite content is another matter due to several factors, but we'll get to that in a bit.
This actually sums it up quite nicely. The point of playing a game is to relax and enjoy yourself with friends. We have enough ribbons where we can measure our battle readiness.
Nice thread guys. Can someone who is into tinkering with their builds for DPS post here how to set up the DPS metering or tracking in the game? I tried once a few years ago but couldn't figure it out, and have been meaning to check it out again. I occasionally get in the mood to try to make ship improvements, but it's hard if you don't know what effect each change you make is having. Thanks!
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VADM Kor, Chief Engineer and Fleet Historian, 7th Fleet, United Federation of Planets.
the way they work (other than sto dps) is it is just a small program you download. inside the program you import, or parse, your combat log. in order to get said log, right before you go into combat type "/combatlog 1" and when you finish the instance type "/combatlog 0" ... that will save that log for you to import..the programs know where to look so dont worry about that.
sto dps runs in your system tray (little icons in bottom right of screen)...you still have to make the combatlog (/combatlog 1 and /combatlog 0) ... but right click the icon and select upload..then log into their website and it will have a ton of info displayed in an easier to read (i think) than the other ones. So i would go with sto dps if you want to see your/others dps and break it down. only go with the official one if you want to officaly record your dps. there are channels in game that you can only get invited to through posting official dps records..i.e. dps10k and dps20k. but those are for the super elite ;p
getting the logs into the programs are easy..reading the data takes a little time to learn the graphs and all..so read up...another reason i like sto dps is cuz is do damn easy and beautiful.
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Captain Nimmoth, USS Mandragoran, "Lucky" 7th Fleet, Starfleet Command, UFP
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) and seeing the best one can build solo, without fleet support be so laughably ineffective in team efforts. Players who can insta-pop flotillas have every reason to be proud of their builds, especially with how much work Cryptic demands from a player to get to that point. As a player who is on the outside looking in, in terms of DPS, I have to ask myself, "What am I contributing to this team?" The answer, sad to say, is "absolutely nothing." From what I have seen in my return, the game engine demands DPS from players. Players who cannot DPS are simply asking to get popped and fail missions. 
